oh, they must not have read number 6: Do not take that which does not belong to you unless it is a burden to the other person and he cries out to be relieved.

yeah I got a kick out of it myself...

(*shrug*) Whatever. To each his own. Satanism never appealed to me at all. Too much Mental Superiority and too much Social Darwinism for me. Too many dramatic - and yet cryptic - sentences. :-) But mostly I just never met a Satanist that I personally liked. Not a real friendly bunch, in my experience. For a public rite or a beach clean up, gimme a rowdy band of folk magickians anyday.

Every Wednesday I am a volunteer intern at the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum in it's Survivor Registry Program. And it's really got me to thinking about this whole idea that belief should be beyond criticism. I don't think that's a healthy position for any society to hold, nor is it really a favor to any religion in the long run. Saying that a religion should not put forth moral standards that condone suffering or advocate the persecution of others is not incompatable with life in a pluralistic society.

The moral code listed above that Satanism advances allows for theft so long as the individual can find an excuse for their behavior. And if they want the object, they will find an excuse. Why should we be faint of heart to say this is not ethical and that since this belief condones causing suffering in others that it is not acceptible in our society?

As a Wiccan, my ethics are not grounded in the religiosity of the Wheel of the Year, but outside of myth and in the universal understanding that suffering can be avoided, and that we can be more certain of our own freedom from suffering if we build a society in which all people are free of suffering. So there's really nothing horrible in anyone saying that a particular religious belief condones and leads people to cause harm for other people. That's different from saying that only your own faith will lead to happiness.

here here!!. i agree completely. culture is a very vast thing.... and like a piece of celtic knotwork it all has to innertwine. and personally id rather live peacefully ... i have my beliefs and they are strong. just as others have thier own. lets all just respect each others beliefs. doesnt mean we have to believe what another believes

I never understood the purpose of a church created simply to oppose another church. If it really is a religion, and the practicioners believe in the existence of Satan...then doesn't it mean they must give credence to the rest of the bible as well? If that's right, doesn't it, in a sense, make them just pissed off Christians?

To be bluntly honest, the more I read and learn about it, the more childish and silly it becomes. This is not to say I reject the concept out of hand. Some of the tenents fall parallel to things I consider fundamental to human existence, like the joy of free expression.

Shine, Why Ayn Rand exactly? I can think of some reasons, but what are you thinking of?

Merry Meet Carla!

> rumour has it that he and L. Ron were friends...

I haven't heard that before, but it wouldn't surprise me. For a while Lavey's Church of Satan was a 'trendy' place to be in San Francisco. My friend, the former COS member, said that it wasn't unusual to have celebs, such as Sammy Davis, Jr. and Jayne Mansfield, in attendance, along with some of the political 'movers and shakers' of the time. She said the politicians were there "very quietly" as a means of meeting people and making deals. If you can find a copy of the "Occult Experience", put out by the Aussie version of the BBC, there is some footage of the early COS rituals that gives you an idea of the theatrics that went into each ritual.

An interesting story about L. Ron was related to me some years ago. One of my 'hobbies' is going to science fiction conventions from time to time. At one particular convention- back in the early 80's- I met a guy who had attended one of the World Cons back in '58. At the time L. Ron was a struggling SF author and he was on a panel discussing how to make a living writing science fiction. One of his comments was that "if you wanted to make some real money, don't write science fiction- start your own religion instead". Afterwards, at a room party, the talk went back to his comment and the topic became; How would one go about starting a religion?

The room party attendees included some pretty well-known SF authors of the itme- including Robert Heinlein- and everyone was tossing out ideas and suggestions, including Heinlein. At one point in the discussion Mr. Heinlein noticed that L. Ron was furiously scribbling notes in a notebook, and said, "You're serious about this, aren't you?" To which L. Ron replied, "Hell yeah, this is the funniest thing I've heard in years!" At this point Robert Heinlein said, "Keep my name out of this!"

Out of this came Scientology. L. Ron Hubbard wrote Dianetics as something of a joke- and used many of the ideas that came out of that room party 'bull session'. Some people have noted certain similarities between some material found in Dianetics, and that of some of Heinlein's later works, including Stranger in a Strange Land. This may be because Heinlein had worked on the themes of Stranger for some time before its release in 1961.

Another weird set of relationships was between L. Ron Hubbard and Jack Parsons, the founder of Jet Propulsion Labs. Parsons was a rocket scientist who was also a member of the OTO. He and Heinlein were good friends because of their technical backgrounds- Heinlein was an engineer. During WWII Parsons worked on many top secret research projects for the US government. His involvement with the German-based OTO was widely known- and even though many OTO members in Germany were relegated to the concentration camps- the government considered Parsons to be something of a 'risk'. L. Ron Hubbard, as a young man, was secretly hired by the OSS- the forerunner to the CIA- to go to work for Parsons, and to keep an eye on him for the OSS. It was probably through the auspices of Parsons that he came to know Heinlein and others- which may have influenced him ot try his hand at writing science fiction. It is also possible that he made some connections with the magickal community in the LA area through Parsons.

As far as I know of, there have been some interesting connections between a number of people in the SF community and the occult community which has continued to this day. The full extent of some of these inter-connections, Lavey and Hubbard for example, we will probably never know because many of the principals are either dead, or are unreliable due to advancing senility.

I realize I've digressed a bit from the topic, but I think it helps to put things into something of a perspective.

B*B,
Ken